The Russian company Kurbatov Arms is not yet very widely known on the arms market - it is a very young manufacturer, operating since 2014. In 2022, the company has already presented one new product - the R-715 hunting carbine , cal. 223 Rem., partially assembled from imported components. And so, in 2022, Kurbatov Arms announced another rifled model - the Kurbatov Arms R-701 in 9x19 caliber. The presentation of the new carbine took place at the Moscow exhibition “ Arms and Hunting 2018 ” (Arms&Hunting) . Thanks to an active promotional campaign, the Kurbatov stand was a real sell-out throughout all exhibition days. Everyone wanted to look at the new carbine, hold it in their hands and draw their own conclusions about the rifle, which could potentially compete with the Saiga-9 from the Kalashnikov Concern .
What did visitors see at the stand of the young company?
Design
At first glance, the Saiga-9 9x19 mm carbine (in no case should be confused with the Saiga, which uses a powerful 9x53 mm cartridge when firing) generally resembles the Vepr. The same short barrel and Picatinny rail for mounting optics do make them quite similar.
In fact, the design and design of the Saiga-9 was largely derived from the Bison submachine gun, used by special units when performing combat missions. In turn, the design of the “Bison” was developed on the basis of the Kalashnikov assault rifle.
When shooting, the world's most common pistol cartridge, 9 mm caliber, is used. A huge number of pistols (Glock, Bereta, Zastava, Walter, Sig-Sauer) and submachine guns (OTs-22, Uzi, Agram, Daewoo) have been developed for it. But still, creating a carbine based on a pistol cartridge can be called a very bold and even risky step.
The weapon is equipped with a folding stock, which makes it more compact and easier to carry. However, you cannot shoot with the butt folded - the carbine is equipped with a special lock.
New in blogs
The history of the pistol cartridge that is currently the most widespread (early 21st century) on planet Earth is no less interesting than the history of the weapon for which it was created.
Let me briefly remind you of the history of the creation of this ammunition. It began in the century before last.
The “great-grandfather” of the famous Parabellum automatic pistol was the pistol of the German gunsmith Hugo Borchardt, which was called “K-93” (Design 1893). This pistol used as ammunition the original bottle-shaped cartridge of 7.65 mm caliber and a cylindrical part diameter of 9 mm. Let's remember the last digit.
The design of the K-93 automatic pistol turned out to be successful, but it was material-intensive, labor-intensive and expensive. In addition, the unique bottle cartridge was also, firstly, very difficult to produce, and secondly, simply expensive.
As a result of several modernizations (through the efforts of the talented German engineer and businessman Otto Luger), in 1902 the K-93 pistol turned into the legendary Parabellum, and the “neck” was cut off from the bottle cartridge (to increase the power of the pistol and reduce production costs). The cartridge was named the same as the pistol. "Parabellum" - "prepare for war."
This is how the 9x19 mm PARA (Parabellum) cartridge, new for its time, turned out.
In 1904, the pistol (and therefore the cartridge) was adopted by the German Navy, and in 1908 – by the German Army. Then he began a triumphal procession around the world. With Parabellum pistols, this cartridge came to countries that purchased German pistols for their armies. To European countries, to Russia and even Brazil.
At first, the bullet of the Parabellum pistol cartridge had the shape of a truncated cone. In 1915 it was replaced by a bullet with an ogive head. Since 1917, the bullet and cartridge case began to be coated with waterproof varnish. Since then, the standard 9x19 mm cartridge has remained virtually unchanged.
The high ballistic characteristics of the ammunition and ease of production, tested during the Second World War, made it de facto the most common cartridge for submachine guns. It remains so in our super-technological times.
Performance characteristics:
Caliber, mm – 9. Initial bullet speed, m/s – 410–435. Muzzle energy of the bullet, J – 485–505. Cartridge length, mm – 29.7. Sleeve length, mm – 19.15. Cartridge weight, g – 7.2–12.5. Bullet weight, g – 5.8–10.2. Standard bullet weight, g – 7.5–8. Weight of a high-speed bullet, g – 2.9. Weight of the powder charge, g – 0.36. (Source: Wikipedia)
Nowadays, the 9x19 mm PARA cartridge (“Parabellum”, or “Luger”, after the name of the designer) is produced in almost all countries of the world that produce ammunition in general, including in Russia. By the way, often the first name usually refers to 9x19 mm NATO live ammunition, and the second to ammunition for the civilian market.
Today, the name 9x19 mm PARA indicates only the geometric dimensions of the cartridge; more than two thousand different modifications of this ammunition are produced in the world.
Cartridge sleeves are made of steel, brass, bimetallic, and plastic.
The bullet can be of any type, including plastic. A general purpose bullet is a jacketed bullet with a lead core, weighing 7.5 or 8 g, the bullet shell is bimetallic or steel, clad with tombak.
In general, bullets come in a variety of shapes and from a variety of materials. The bullet, like the cartridge as a whole, can be used to solve its own, sometimes very specific, problems.
Thus, the Finnish “police bullets” KRO are a lead “bubble” with emptiness inside. When such a bullet hits a person, it crushes, “incapacitating” the person with a painful shock, but without causing serious bodily harm.
On the contrary, there are armor-piercing bullets with a core made of hardened steel in the form of a “screw”, which not only bluntly pierces, but is screwed into steel or body armor, penetrating much further than just a sharp piece of hardware.
There are also quite a few classifications of 9x19 mm cartridges, the most common being based on the muzzle energy of the bullet. For the European market, the standard is 450 J. Everything above 550 J is considered strong (for the military), everything below 400 J is considered “weak”, for solving special problems. For the American market, the standard is considered to be 300–400 J of energy; such cartridges are designated “Luger”. Anything above 450 J is considered “special purpose” and is designated “Parabellum”.
Well, there are generally exotic 9x19 mm cartridges with tracer bullets, intended for training shooting from Armbrust and Miniman anti-tank grenade launchers, equipped with special barrel inserts.
And one more interesting observation. All pistols chambered for the 9x19 cartridge, produced for the military, have a locked bolt (the longest life), for the police - a semi-engaged one, and for the civilian market it is not uncommon for a blowback bolt, which has a very short life.
The reason is purely economic - the quality of ammunition and weapon life (the number of shots before the mechanism is destroyed). A military barrel must reliably fire several thousand times almost without interruption, a police barrel is designed for about one hundred to two hundred rounds per year, a civilian one even less.
Plus the quality of the ammunition. A standard civilian user chooses the best standard or weakened ammunition for shooting (military ammunition usually does not make it into the civilian distribution network); the police suppliers are quite reputable and proven. But stocks for military weapons in case of war are made according to the principle “to be more powerful, simpler and cheaper.” Therefore, in any instructions for a civilian pistol, even one that is designed for military-grade ammunition (for example, Glock-17), the manufacturer does not recommend doing this.
New, modern Russian pistols (the Gryazev-Shipunov “GSh-18” pistol and the Yarygin “PYa” pistol) were originally designed for the 9x19 mm cartridge. “Standard” 9x19 mm cartridges in Russia are produced by the Tula “TPZ”, the Ulyanovsk Machine-Building Plant, and the Barnaul .
By the way, the 9x19 mm Parabellum pistol cartridge is never converted to the inch system. It is always 9x19 mm Parabellum.
Purpose
Although the weapon is officially called a hunting carbine, it is used extremely rarely for hunting. The reason for this was the 9x19 mm cartridge used. Yes, you can shoot them while hunting. But in general it is completely unsuitable for this. When shooting at ducks or hares, the probability of hitting the target is quite small; after all, a bullet is not a shot that covers a fairly large area due to its dispersion.
However, the weapon is not suitable for larger prey either. The low weight of the bullet does not have a sufficient stopping effect, and it clearly does not cause enough damage upon impact. Therefore, taking a carbine when going after a bear, elk or wild boar is also not a good idea.
Therefore, usually “Saiga-9” 9x19 millimeters is bought for shooting at shooting ranges and simply for self-defense. He's really good in that regard. A massive pistol bullet causes serious wounds, causing pain to the attacker. But, unlike weapons of 12 and even 20 gauge, it rarely leads to his death.
9×19 rifled carbine: Let's talk frankly
After an honest 5 years of experience, I got my first carbine - Saiga 9 caliber 9×19 !
True, now all fashionable shooters are buying a carbine in nine, it’s a hit and a must-have for the 2022 shooting season. And after the purchase (when else!) it’s time to think about why this carbine is needed? Why is he so popular? How much does training with him help in preparing for tru-carbine matches?
As a novice to long gun shooting, I addressed these questions to authoritative, yet independent and objective athletes - carbine shooters. The discussion took place in the format of a virtual round table.
So, I introduce the participants:
- Pavel Danilovich, MSMK
- Igor Kazakov
- Sergey Orlov, MS
- Natalya Rumyantseva, MS
- Georgy Gubich aka Zhora Nefteskvazhinsky, MS
- Anastasia Chernenko, MS
Anastasia : Well, let's start. the 9x19 really be considered a training rifle?
Georgy : Can the 9×19 Saiga serve as a replacement for a carbine for preparing for carbine matches? If the match takes place at short pistol distances a la Tolyatti, then yes. You can practice almost all the necessary skills this way. But everything else is only partly. Besides, this can only be of help to a good shooter. Which, by changing weapons, can improve some individual element. A beginner, shooting from a 9x19, will simply have time to forget how to shoot from a normal carbine.
Sergey : The first and most basic difference is the ballistics of the 9x19 cartridge, which does not allow effective shooting at carbine distances. In principle, this is already enough to forget about any result in a carbine match, not to mention the power factor.
Pavel : At the last Russian Carbine Championship in Bryansk, the first exercises that I shot (with a boat, a motorcycle) were at a distance of 20-25m. All the shooting elements that were used there could easily be practiced with the 9x19 Luger rifle.
Georgy : Still, the carbine distance for the most part should be 80-250 meters, beyond that it’s quite rare. But even at these distances, the Saiga 9 will in no way replace a carbine. But everything that is closer can be worked out. True, then you meet such a shooter at a normal match, and his entire range follows the principle of a lottery: if you’re lucky, you’ll get there. If you're unlucky, that's okay.
Natalya: I’m not sure that a 9×19 caliber carbine should be considered as a full-fledged opportunity to prepare for a real carbine match. This is the wrong caliber and the wrong ballistics. And the ergonomics are not quite the same. Here I am more inclined to use .22 LR.
Sergey: Yes, it’s no secret that the Finns use .22 LR carbines for training. In our country, due to the peculiarities of the market, this opportunity is very limited, but we have 9x19, which can be used by analogy.
Pavel: Of course, having a full-fledged rifle of 5.6 or .22 LR caliber would be even better, but there are very few such weapons, almost no one has them.
Natalya: I have two.
Anastasia: And yet, what training elements can be worked out in the nine? And how exactly?
Sergey: If necessary, you can integrate training in a shooting range with a “nine” into the main training plan. But this task requires quite serious knowledge to understand what to do and why. It’s pointless to just go to the shooting range and bang. Let me draw your attention to the fact that we are talking about integrating them specifically as an addition to full-fledged training from a real carbine , and not completely replacing them.
Pavel: If you have good parts and DTK, Saiga-9 allows you to see the technique of the shot, despite the fact that the weapon itself will not have any effect on the technique. You can come to the shooting range and practice the following elements: aiming, throwing, shooting from the knee, prone, from a rest, changing the magazine. Everything that will give you knowledge and experience as a shooter. Not an arrow - practice, but just an arrow.
Igor: Of course, you need to “dress up” the Saiga 9 to the maximum so that it is close to the main carbine with which you compete.
Sergey: The construction of a 9×19 training carbine is a separate discussion, because. it should be a copy of your main one, both in terms of ergonomics and weight and size characteristics. Moreover, the ergonomics of this are not only a comfortable handle and butt, it is, first of all, a complete analogue of your main carbine in terms of such parameters as the length of the butt, the height of the sight above the cheek ridge, the place of grip of the left hand, the setting of the trigger, etc., including the sighting system.
Pavel: But you can train fully. And even more so for experienced shooters. Because any training with any weapon is good.
Georgy: One more thing, IMHO, for a novice carbine operator, the main thing is to learn to hit at carbine distances , and only then practice movements, entries and exits. What's the point of moving fast if you can't hit? But for a top shooter, it’s the opposite. You need to focus your attention on “outflanking” your opponents, who shoot just as accurately as you.
Sergey: My opinion, which does not claim to be the ultimate truth, is this. Training in a shooting range with a nine and competing in matches with a normal rifle is a road to nowhere.
Igor: But something can help, for example, practicing shooting on the move, game plans. I myself am going to the Assault on the Citadel in Tolyatti in May. Accelerate, add speed, shoot while moving. But the rest of the aspects - alas, it will be very difficult to work out on the nine. Because there are too many different elements you need to know and be able to do in a carbine, which cannot be worked out in a nine.
Natalya: Nine is certainly useful for practicing some elements in an indoor shooting range and improving your physical fitness. Well, have a lot of fun while playing pistol matches. Yes, I already bought Saiga 9 for myself too!
Sergey: Participate in matches with nine “fo fan” - yes! Relax, have fun, have a blast, get a lot of fun and adrenaline - yes! The first time I tried and shot several exercises with Saiga 9 was a little over a year ago at the rifle Winter Cup. Loved it - great fun!
Anastasia: It turns out that the popularity of the 9×19 carbine ?
Georgy: The main point is that there are very few shooting ranges and shooting ranges in the country with the possibility of training with a full-fledged carbine. These include requirements for the bullet protection class and the physical capabilities of the hood. Not everyone can afford to travel to Pushchino, Alabino or Britovo even in Moscow. So people take Saiga 9 and train in pistol shooting ranges.
Pavel: A simple point - weather conditions. The carbine doesn't always allow for training, and there are no indoor shooting ranges for .223 caliber.
Sergey: Indoor comfortable shooting ranges in the city, transport accessibility and flexible schedules greatly contribute to an increase in the number of people who want to join the “carbine”. All this is great and great, if not for one thing...
Many position this movement as preparation for the World Carbine Championship , although in fact, only a few will be able to get there. Match organizers are opening special classes for Saiga 9 owners, announcing this as preparation for the carbine World Championship, shooters write and show on blogs how well they shoot from the “carbine,” the movement is in full swing. Observing all this from the outside, I increasingly wonder if everyone understands what they are doing and what they want to get in the end?
Anastasia: And how, is it true that participation in pistol matches with a 9×19 carbine can help in preparation for the World Cup?
Pavel: There is no longer any need to prepare for the World Championship, everything should already be ready. The main weapon, and you only need to train with it.
Sergey: In conclusion, I will repeat again. Nine has the right to life in a carbine, the only question is how to use it. It seems to me that now most shooters are too carried away and are in captivity of illusions. The period of euphoria will pass, and everyone will see for themselves what remains.
Igor: Naturally, the 9×19 carbine will not completely replace normal training. It is best to find ways and means for training with a normal carbine.
Anastasia: I see we are entering the second round. So, we can finish. Many thanks to all participants!
Author: Chernenko Anastasia
Main advantages
The weapon has a number of important advantages, thanks to which it receives mostly positive reviews.
One of the advantages is low recoil. However, it is difficult to expect anything else from a weapon using a pistol cartridge. This makes the rifle an excellent choice for beginners learning to shoot. Still, the powerful recoil from a 12-16 caliber weapon may well discourage you from shooting, leaving a powerful bruise on your shoulder for several weeks and forever a fear of shooting. So, it can be recommended for shooting for women and teenagers.
Low recoil ensures good shooting accuracy. Still, thanks to the weak pistol cartridge and the decent weight of the weapon, each shot will not throw the barrel upward, which has a positive effect on shooting accuracy.
The weapon design is also well done. Still, the base was the Bison submachine gun, the development of which the designers took extremely seriously. It’s nice that a person who is used to working with a Kalashnikov assault rifle (for example, in the army) can easily get used to the Saiga-9 carbine - the main components are almost exactly copied from army weapons.
Finally, in the basic version, the carbine is already equipped with a Picatinny rail, which must be installed additionally on most guns of the Saiga family. This means that there is a certain scope for tuning - we’ll tell you more about it a little later.
New R-701 carbine in 9x19 caliber
The Kurbatov Arms R-701 model is a blowback carbine chambered for a 9x19 caliber pistol cartridge. It is based on the AR-15 - from the American rifle it received the trigger mechanism and the connecting dimensions of the butt and fire control handle.
At the same time, the pistol-carbine uses Russian Pufgun magazines , which are also suitable for Saiga-9 .
Despite the use of ready-made elements, the R-701 is not just a construction kit assembled in Russia from imported parts. The company has already established its own production using high-precision machines. The body of the weapon is made by milling from an aluminum alloy .
The production of full-cycle barrels deserves special mention . Barrels with a muzzle brake are made of durable steel, cut with mandrel and coated with a protective coating using carbonitriding technology - thanks to this, the barrel not only looks impressive, but also becomes stronger.
The new carbine from Kurbatov is primarily intended for practical sports shooting (IPSC) . The new product is entering the market at a very good time - just when the International Confederation of Practical Shooting introduced pistol-carbines as a separate class of weapons.
From 2022, pistol-carbine shooting competitions will be included in the official program of the world championships - and the Kurbatov Arms R-701 will become perhaps the only domestic weapon of this class. Perhaps this was taken into account when developing a new carbine.
Nevertheless, the new product may well be of interest to hunters. After all, one of the main advantages of the new model is versatility. It will be possible to install almost any AR-15 compatible handles, stocks and triggers , which opens up huge scope for various modifications. Even the cocking handle and the safety box can be moved to the right/left side for the convenience of the shooter.
The carbine is equipped with a Picatinny rail at the top of the receiver - thanks to this, it can be equipped with almost any optics. A shorter Picatinny rail under the forend allows the installation of various bipods, additional handles, flashlights and other elements.
Existing disadvantages
Alas, any non-standard solution that brings important advantages inevitably brings disadvantages, which are very important to know about. However, they have already been discussed.
Of course, first of all, this is a weak cartridge used. On the one hand, it provides good accuracy due to low recoil. But this also has a downside. A small amount of gunpowder leads to the fact that the force of the shot is quite small. Therefore, using a carbine for hunting becomes almost impossible. And the maximum combat distance here is not too great - much less than, for example, the Saiga-12.
In general, the shortcomings can be considered exhausted. At least technical ones. But also do not forget that the weapon is rifled. Therefore, it will not be possible to purchase it as easily as a smoothbore one.
User reviews
When talking about the Saiga-9 9x19 hunting carbine, it would be useful to include reviews from experienced shooters so that the reader can get a more objective idea of this weapon.
In general, most owners agree that the carbine is highly reliable. Which is not surprising - after all, his “grandfather” was the legendary Kalashnikov assault rifle. The weapon is unpretentious and can withstand even very careless treatment on the part of the owner and rare cleanings. The design is as simple and practical as possible - it is as easy as possible to learn even for a person who has never held a weapon in his hands before.
Negative reviews are quite rare. Not everyone likes simple stamped parts without traces of drawings or other aesthetics. But what can I say – this is a weapon, and quite a practical one at that. Therefore, beauty fades into the background here.
Some shooters are dissatisfied with the power of the weapon, but this has already been discussed above - a standard pistol cartridge allows you to get certain advantages, but you also have to pay for it with some disadvantages.
Shooting Saiga 9*19
In 2016, already having the Saiga 7.62x39 version MK-03 in my hands, I became interested in the development of the Kalashnikov Concern Saiga 9x19
At one time I thought about buying a TAURUS CT9 G2, but it turned out to be not of very high quality; two of my colleagues had blown barrels for unknown reasons.
Beretta CX 4 Storm at the time when I was about to buy it was already indecently expensive for me.
In 2013-2014, the KSO-9 “Krechet” carbine, k.9x19, appeared, which, in my opinion, was a parody of weapons and was intended for those who like to break the law by reducing the overall length of the weapon.
Since I purchased the carbine of the next caliber for sports training shooting, the caliber was determined to be 9x19. The main indicators of the device were price and reliability.
In 2015, Saiga-9 finally appeared.
After reading the description of the model on the manufacturer's website. The Saiga 9x19 carbine is available in four modifications: two chambered for the 9 mm Luger (9×19) cartridge with a jacketed bullet (FMJ) differing only in barrel length - 237 or 367 mm and two chambered for the 9×21 cartridge, also with an FMJ bullet with the same barrel lengths (all modifications are equipped with a military frame stock folding to the left).
By the way, it is interesting that the instruction manual states that - “The hunting carbine... is intended for shooting in open and closed shooting ranges.” What does hunting have to do with it then? Unclear.
After thinking, I decided to take the Saiga-9x19 version 02, that is, chambered for the 9x19 cartridge with a barrel length of 367 mm. This model is equipped with one long plastic magazine with a pin (transverse pin) cartridge capacity limiter (the pin limits the downward movement of the magazine feeder and thereby prevents the entry of the eleventh cartridge into the magazine).
One magazine included. The second one was purchased through a retail chain. The carbine was already in short supply at the time of purchase; I had to order it and wait a month. This carbine has a longer barrel, and therefore greater accuracy.
And now, finally, the long-awaited sample is in my hands. Through connections I got it for 29,000 rubles.
Packaging, as always, package. The device itself is in paper. Magazine, oil can, cleaning rod, pencil case with brushes, instruction manual.
I take 9x19 cartridges made by BARNAUL and go to a closed quarry. I set a target, pistol four, thirty meters. I shoot three times with open sights. I look and don’t understand why there is only one hole. I'm going to the target. I come up and am surprised. 30 meters, 9x19 cartridges produced by BARNAUL, Saiga-9...
The result is in the photo.
I have no words. I am delighted. Really accurate weapon.
In the future I recommend this carbine to my friends, but for some reason it disappears from sale. According to rumors, the first batch was good, the other two were defective. But these are rumors.
With all the advantages of this carbine, there are 2 disadvantages:
1. Powder gases hurt your eyes if you don’t have glasses. It’s not that it’s annoying, but you feel it.
2. The cleaning rod constantly flies out of its socket.
There are more and more people wanting to buy carbines; the carbines remaining on sale cost 60,000 or more thousand rubles. And so on July 9, 2016 23:29, the Kalashnikov Concern answered our question on the website talks.guns.ru:
Originally posted by Nicko1517: Sorry for the pun above, this is my first time here, I haven’t gotten the hang of it yet. There is an open license for the purchase of rifled ones, I decided to take Saiga 9x19 for myself, but, like some, I encountered a shortage of it on the market. Reading the information from KK I decided to wait for it to appear in stores. 20 minutes. back I called Armz LLC (Legion) in Izhevsk and they “delighted” me - “... discontinued!” I don’t want to cause panic... but like every normal person in this country, I’m a little... worried. What do you say, gentlemen, does anyone have any information, or should we be seriously worried?
Answer from the Kalashnikov Concern:
Dear Nicko1517! As was said, the weapons were planned for May, June and July. Those carbines that were made over these months are currently being sent to dealers throughout Russia.
Then, unfortunately, a break in production is expected again. Until autumn. We will try to do everything to ensure that it is minimal and the weapon becomes part of the plan as early as possible.
At the moment, there were no carbines. Therefore, we give a minus to the Kalashnikov Concern for deceiving the buyer. But we give it a plus for a high-quality carbine.
Text: Modest Kalinin.
Photo: Modest Kalinin, Internet.
Tuning options
Now it’s worth talking briefly about tuning the Saiga-9 9x19. Needless to say, they are quite extensive.
Of course, the very first thing that comes to mind is the possibility of installing various optics - mainly collimator sights. Thanks to them, you can significantly improve shooting accuracy. Moreover, at the same time, the time spent on aiming is significantly reduced - there is an excellent opportunity to shoot almost offhand at a fairly long distance - about 40-60 meters.
If desired, you can also install a new muzzle brake-compensator to replace the standard one. Thanks to this, shooting is further stabilized - the powder gases, leaving the barrel, spread more evenly, which contributes to even less tossing of the weapon when fired.
Some owners install an under-barrel flashlight - also a good solution if there is a need to shoot in the dark. This is especially true for security guards and private home owners who buy weapons primarily to protect themselves and their property.
Pro-Carbine 9×19
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Author : Chernenko Anastasia.
A recent article about the 9x19 carbine generated some very heated and interesting discussions. Moreover, there were readers who accused me of having a biased attitude towards the rifle in the nine, reproaching me for collecting only negative reviews. To restore justice, I decided to interview active supporters of the PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine), high-class athletes, prize-winners and winners of the few matches so far in the 9x19 carbine division.
I present the discussion participants:
- Andrey Fedorov
is a match organizer and a very authoritative person in the PS. - Vsevolod Ilyin
- ZMS, representative of the Kalashnikov concern, twice World Champion. - Tim Standard
is a regular and champion of PCC matches. - Tatyana Makarova
is a member of the Lady Russia IPSC community, Russian Champion, twice European Champion, World Champion. PCC started shooting recently, but very successfully, being among the winners of the competition. - Anastasia Chernenko
- presenter.
Anastasia
: Well, let's start. Share your thoughts, in your opinion, what is the reason for the popularity of the 9x19 carbine and the increase in the number of shooters shooting the carbine in pistol matches?
Andrey
: Perhaps, the initial main reason for the development of a carbine chambered for a pistol cartridge was the very fact of being able to own a pistol cartridge without consequences from punitive authorities. At one time, I myself was the initiator of the promotion of the Luger as a hunting ammunition, in order to protect pistol players from persecution for a cartridge accidentally forgotten in their pocket during training and the opportunity to purchase ammunition for a match without the participation (read: not burdening) shooting clubs and at an affordable price.
Tatiana
: This is no secret - many pistol shooters buy a carbine in 9x19 caliber in order to have a license for the cartridge and reduce the cost of training. But a weapon sitting idle in a safe gives no rest! And so we, pistol gunners, accustomed to shooting in comfortable conditions, have difficulty getting out to distant and not very comfortable shooting ranges to try our hand at other types of weapons. The 9x19 carbine allows us to expand our shooting skills without leaving our usual comfort zone.
Vsevolod
: Yes, pistol shooting ranges are within walking distance and they are all-season, all-weather and 24/7 (no dependence on daylight hours and the training process can be fit into the work week).
Andrey
: Of course, there are a huge number of shooting ranges for pistol cartridges and almost a vacuum of shooting ranges for long range rifles. People want to train with a rifle within walking distance, rather than spend an entire day traveling to the ends of the earth. You can practice your base, movements, splits and transfers at the shooting range with a carbine chambered for a pistol cartridge, and the development of “sniper” skills with a real carbine will not be diluted by point-blank splits and excessively painful wear of the barrel unnecessarily. In short, glory to the Kalashoids in the top nine, glory!! Well, the growth of carbine shooters in pistol matches is due precisely to the desire to get match shots inexpensively and with minimal wear on the “match” barrel, with the same starting stresses and adrenaline-fueled physical exercise. Cheap and cheerful. And if you compare the number of purely carbine starts with the number of pistol starts, you immediately understand how much carbine shooters are discriminated against today relative to other shooting disciplines and how great it is that it is possible to compensate for the missing profile starts with such semi-toy starts :).
Tatiana
: Having completed several starts in the carbine and 9×19 carbine, I can say that the advantage of the RSS is the preservation of the dynamics inherent in pistol matches and practically unrealistic in most carbine match exercises in the “correct” calibers.
Vsevolod
: It is precisely the participation of carbine drivers in competitions with pistol-caliber carbines in competitions that allows them to significantly increase the speed of working with targets at short distances (less than 50 meters), as well as test game plans that are unconventional for a carbine, more typical for a pistol. And then, the pistol caliber carbine is crazy fast and exciting!
Anastasia
: And what do you think are the prospects for the development of this class of weapons in practical shooting in Russia and in the world?
Vsevolod
: The USPSA has adopted the PCC discipline since 2014 and is developing at a breakneck pace, becoming very popular. The first World Championships in this discipline will be held in the USA in September 2022. Discussions continue within the IPSC to synthesize USPSA's experience in the PCC to introduce this new class into the IPSC rules. In Russia, organizers of pistol competitions are increasingly inviting participants to take part with pistol-caliber carbines. In May, for the first time in Yekaterinburg, at the Archangel Michael Cup, a carbine match will be held in parallel with the pistol competition. An unofficial Russian Pistol Caliber Carbine Championship is also planned there in August 2022, immediately after the Russian Pistol Championship.
Team Standard
: It’s not uncommon for a pistol shooter to come up with a request to try shooting with a Saiga, and after completing the exercise, he comes back with sparkling eyes and rave reviews. This is certainly an indicative characteristic.
Vsevolod
: The prospects for the new discipline are good. Her popularity in PS is growing rapidly. There is a good chance that PCC will become an official discipline within IPSC and FPSR in the near future.
Anastasia
: It’s no secret that due to sanctions and the obsolescence of the stock of short-barreled weapons in Russia, the pistol is becoming less and less accessible, and therefore attractive for shooters. Do you think Saiga −9 can be an alternative?
Tatiana
: For some part of the shooters, of course. The cost of entering the sport with this type of carbine is significantly lower than with a pistol. Plus the ability to store, and therefore chill, at home.
Team Standard
: I believe Saiga-9 has already carved out its own niche. In my opinion, comparing a carbine, albeit chambered for a pistol cartridge as an alternative replacement for the pistol itself, is not entirely appropriate. At the same time, as someone who was starting to master long-barreled weapons, it was noticeably easier for me to shoot from it, and over the past year I have shot most of the sporting competitions using the Saiga. I completed the same competition several times with both a pistol and a carbine. It was these types of matches that made me realize that I prefer shooting with a carbine. In addition, it is encouraging that despite all the difficulties, the import of sports pistols to Russia has nevertheless increased. Of course, their cost has also increased, but as we see, this does not stop Russian shooters. My hope is high for Russian manufacturers, to whom I wish successful implementation of their projects. I really want Russian athletes to win with high-quality Russian weapons.
Andrey
: Well, I’m an old pistol guy and I probably won’t agree that a pistol can lose to anything in principle. But it is still a fact that many shooters do not recognize weapons that they cannot own and, not having the opportunity to keep them at hand and train them daily, simply reject them for the time being. You can have a saiga in nine at home and cool it, tune it, tweak it in any way. Perhaps this will be an impetus for the development of this direction. At least many familiar shooters and female shooters :) quite unexpectedly joined the sect of carbine shooters of the “ninth” day and are quite successfully shooting in this direction. Although of course there is no alternative to a pistol in its pure form :)
Anastasia
: Andrey, as a match organizer, why did you decide to open a class in the carbine nine at the Assault on the Citadel?
Andrey
: My matches, without exception, are built on the principle of self-sufficiency. Our club employs many people for whom it is very important to receive their salary at the end of the month, and I, as a leader, have no right to deceive their expectations. Therefore, naturally I am forced to look for ways to maximize the workload of my events. Unfortunately, in recent years, with the advent of free matches, it has become difficult for us working in the market to survive and please our friends at the same time. And attracting new shooters, with new requests and conditions, will not only fill our box office, but also diversify the matches. For example, this season, pistol riders will be faced with serious distances that are not typical for a pistol, for which we should say thanks to the “pistols” with a butt, which entered our lives so sharply and so thoroughly, we were all just going nuts :).
Anastasia
: What are these distances that are not typical for a pistol?
Andrey
: I’m probably showing off, but for me with a pistol, a popper at 120 meters is a fairly simple and understandable target.
As for most shooters from Tolyatti. And we shoot at 350 meters all year round just to realize the futility of all things. So the distance is simply the capabilities of the shooting range, and not the level of the shooter or weapon. Up to three hundred everything is the same :).
Anastasia
: That popper at 120 m for a pistol is a simple target, of course you bent it. Is it possible to shoot at three hundred meters with Saiga 9?
Tatiana
: What three hundred? I think even for a 9x19 carbine the working distance is up to 75 meters. Then, to be honest, I’m not sure of a guaranteed hit.
Team Standard
: Agree. Depending on the model of weapon and ammunition, these distances are mainly up to 75 meters. The technical characteristics of the Saiga-9 suggest shooting up to 100 meters, but I personally have not carried out such shooting. But you got me interested in this question. I will conduct such an experiment at a distance of 100 m.
Vsevolod
: It is quite possible to work at both 100 and 200 m. But long distances are definitely not the strongest place for pistol caliber carbines. Still, the PCC is a “big pistol with a butt” :).
Anastasia
: So Saiga-9 is closest to a pistol? Or to the carbine? Or maybe even a gun?
Vsevolod
: Pistol and carbine, in my opinion.
Tatiana
: I would say that it’s still a carbine.
Team Standard
: The carbine is the closest. At the same time, a carbine chambered for a pistol cartridge has its own nuances and, in my opinion, is to some extent a hybrid of the pistol-carbine classes. These factors, coupled with light weight and low recoil, allow this carbine to occupy its niche in the training of juniors and girls, who often lack the physical capabilities to comfortably master other structurally similar, but heavier types of weapons.
Anastasia
: What would you say about the recoil nature of the Saiga 9 and the return of the weapon to the aiming point? And in comparison with other types of weapons.
Team Standard
: Recoil is soft, weapon control is high, when using a suitable DTK there is practically no deviation from the aiming line. In my opinion, this helps to develop the right skills, weans you from fighting with weapons, focusing on other aspects of shooting.
Vsevolod
: When compared to a gun, the RSS has virtually no recoil or barrel movement when firing. If we compare the recoil of Saiga 9, prepared for PCC competitions, and traditional carbines, then its recoil is approximately at the level of AK system carbines of .223 and 5.45 caliber with adjusted kinematics and DTK.
Tatiana
: The saiga I shoot from has a very good DTK. It ensures almost complete absence of recoil and practically does not move the weapon away from the aiming point after firing. This allows you to make fairly quick and clear splits on targets.
Anastasia
: Then let's talk about tuning Saiga-9.
Team Standard
: We are entering a shaky path. The choice of tuning a particular weapon depends on many factors, anatomically necessary or other personal ones. The factory trigger of the Saiga-9 is generally quite reliable, soft and predictable. I did not replace it with anything else, like most of my fellow athletes. I limited the travel of the trigger, installed a long aluminum forend, which made it lighter, and just recently installed an adjustable stock and a really working DTK. I haven’t tested any sports trigger for the Saiga 9×19, I haven’t seen a lot of offers. I would like a trigger with a straight trigger, a short, clear reset similar to what is in my sports pistol. At the moment, I am using a closed-type collimator sight made in Russia. Most competitions take place in indoor shooting ranges, where lighting conditions are not always satisfactory. This factor made me think about purchasing an open-type sight with more contrasting, coated optics and no tube effect.
Vsevolod
: Traditionally, these are ergonomic elements: a forend, a pistol grip for fire control, a comfortable butt, an extension skirt for the magazine receiver. Magazine release lever. Fuse with additional platform. Suitable sight and DTK. The trigger can be any: either a modified standard one, or sports triggers from third-party manufacturers, up to customized or already configured triggers located in a single assembly (drop-in). Here everyone goes their own way, choosing the type of trigger they need, its size and force, and the shape of the trigger.
As a sighting system for the standard, you can use standard sights or use a diopter and work on the front sight. In an open class, a small suitable collimator is usually installed. Everyone chooses the manufacturer and model to their own taste. I personally like the C-More RTS2 red dots.
Andrey
: I have been preaching tuning from Magpul for many years, but in recent years they have made adjustments. HitFactor, PowerFactor and other young and daring manufacturers burst into this market and decorated Kalashoids beyond recognition. American friends have been traditionally and fanatically churning out tuning for our Cars for ten years now, so much so that we constantly ask ourselves the question Why? How did it happen that the Kalash is ours, but they are modernizing it. Slides from ALG, Tapco, Jard and others allow you to change the very meaning of the Kalashov descent beyond recognition. Although we must admit that a file in skillful hands can make a doll from a native one :)) Optics, of course, is a purely personal matter. On nine, multiple optics are clearly not needed, but Eotek is too rough. Among the calimators, I would recommend the domestic Pilad. A very good and not expensive thing, at the price of China, with quite combat characteristics. But this is certainly not a dogma. Everyone chooses for themselves.
Tatiana
: The saiga I shoot from has a very good DTK. It provides almost complete absence of recoil and practically does not move the weapon away from the aiming point after firing. This allows you to make fairly quick and clear splits on targets.
Anastasia
: And how does this help in competitions with the “correct rifle”? And I mean, do you have any progress in your results on the carbine after training in the “nine”.
Vsevolod
: Certainly. “Nine” allows you to perfectly practice quick manipulations with weapons and significantly increase the speed of working with close (up to 50 m) targets.
Tatiana
: Definitely yes! Many of the mistakes that a beginning carbine shooter encounters are independent of caliber. Ability to move safely with long guns. Tab. Rack. I remember my first match in a 9x19 carbine when I was shooting at a nearby target and didn’t understand why there were no hits - chips were flying around me. A classic mistake for a beginner in the open category. I practiced all of this with the 9x19 carbine, and coming to the .223 carbine made it easier for me to focus on other aspects.
Team Standard
: And I was surprised by my progress in pistol shooting, despite the almost complete lack of training with it. I expect progress in the carbine when shooting at close and medium targets. I look forward to the next carbine shooting competition with great interest, after which I will conduct a full analysis and reflection.
Anastasia
: Have you encountered such carbine-specific positions as prone and kneeling shooting at 9×19 carbine competitions?
Tatiana
: Yes, we met. But given the fact that competitions with the 9x19 carbine take place on the basis of pistol matches, such provisions are rather a rare occurrence.
Team Standard
: Shooting from a kneeling position and from a low port, yes, it happened, but shooting from a prone position did not. This is due to the fact that matches are mainly built based on pistol requirements.
Andrey
: Practical shooting preaches free style and achieving the goal in any way. If the drill designer puts the shooter on his knees, then the shooter will shoot from his knees, if not, then no. I've probably seen everything, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything :) (just kidding).
Anastasia
: And yet, will training with Saiga 9 help in preparing for the Carbine World Championship?
Tatiana
: In my opinion they will help. But this is not enough to show a decent result.
Team Standard
: Given the lack of opportunities for a sufficient amount of training with a conventional carbine, trips to the shooting range with boundaries over 100 meters, yes, it will help. But it definitely won't replace it.
Vsevolod
: Certainly. For training individual elements and skills.
Andrey
: Definitely, as I said earlier, every shot in every training brings success and victory closer. It’s better to take a hundred shots with a nine than ten with a .223. Live weapons, various starts, the coach’s voice, the adrenaline provoked by the start signal is a thousand times better than good advice on Facebook and a video of the champion’s unreal time on someone else’s stage. Saiga 9 will open doors for you to places where other paths would take you too long and difficult to go. A lightweight, compact carbine with full control of a combat carbine chambered for a long-barreled cartridge will allow you to train all year round, inexpensively, in the comfortable conditions of indoor shooting ranges, and now also take part in competitions almost three times a week. Well, isn’t it a miracle :) PS: 8 years ago I made a promise to myself and took the same from my students: never, under any circumstances, put pistol cartridges in your pocket!! Today, years later, my students are released from this oath. They can quite legally put pistol cartridges anywhere, they have the right...
Anastasia
: Thanks everyone! We will follow your progress in the carbine and 9×19 carbine :). Good luck and victories!
How to buy it?
Purchasing a Saiga-9 carbine in our country is more difficult than any smooth-bore weapon. After all, this is a rifled weapon. Therefore, according to the law, only people who have a certain experience in owning a smoothbore gun can buy it - at least 5 years. Usually, there are no problems when obtaining a license - except for cases when a person abuses alcohol or commits violations when storing or shooting an existing weapon.
So, if you have been the owner of a smooth-bore weapon for 5 years (continuous experience is required) or more, and also belong to the category of disciplined, responsible citizens, then no problems will probably arise in obtaining a license and purchasing Saiga-9.
